普拉昌達(dá)同志在第二輪高峰和談前夕接受采訪

INTERVIEW WITH PRACHANDA

Excerpts of an interview with Chairman of the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), Prachanda, taken on the eve of the much-hyped October 8 Summit Talks between his party and the ruling seven-party alliance:

在世人矚目的10月8日尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)和七黨聯(lián)盟高峰和談前夕，本報(bào)對(duì)尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)主席普拉昌達(dá)進(jìn)行了采訪，以下是摘錄：

Q. Will the CPN-M be participating in the October 8 talks?

問(wèn)：尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)會(huì)參加10月8日的和談嗎？

Prachanda: There is no certainty as to the question of participation in the talks. Interactions to this end are going on with the parties, but nothing is confirmed yet.

普拉昌達(dá)：這里不存在是否參加和談的問(wèn)題。關(guān)于這次和談，我們一直在同各政黨協(xié)商，但仍然沒(méi)有確定。

Q. So what is the reality then?

問(wèn)：那么情況怎樣呢？

Prachanda: We haven't been able to agree on the way forward. What we feel is that the 12-point understanding against the feudal autocracy was aimed against the excesses of the then Royal Army and the present Nepal army. The 8-point understanding was the result of an attempt to move forward with the 12-point understanding. But since then the seven-party government has deviated from the spirit of these historical understandings.

普拉昌達(dá)：我們還沒(méi)有就下一步行動(dòng)達(dá)成共識(shí)。我們認(rèn)為反對(duì)封建獨(dú)裁制的12點(diǎn)協(xié)定是為了對(duì)付當(dāng)時(shí)王軍和現(xiàn)在尼泊爾國(guó)家軍的過(guò)火行為。8點(diǎn)協(xié)定是對(duì)12點(diǎn)協(xié)定的進(jìn)一步完善。但是此后七黨聯(lián)盟政府就背離了這些歷史性協(xié)定的精神。

Q. Could you cite some examples of the deviation?

問(wèn)：您能舉出一些關(guān)于背離的例子嗎？

Prachanda: The way in which the letter to the UN was written, with the intention of separating the Maoist army from its arms, contrary to the initial agreement of managing both armies and their arms in the same manner and calling the UN for monitoring, is the most potent example of this deviation. This is a very dangerous thing. This was an attack on the spirit of the April movement. The political outlet the eight- and 12-point understandings had promised was effectively blocked for us. Our greatest objection is to this very issue.

普拉昌達(dá)：在給聯(lián)合國(guó)的信中提到解除毛主義軍隊(duì)的武裝，就違背了最初協(xié)定中講的以同樣方式管理雙方軍隊(duì)及其武器并請(qǐng)聯(lián)合國(guó)監(jiān)督的條文，這是背離的典型例子。這是非常危險(xiǎn)的事情。這是對(duì)4月人民運(yùn)動(dòng)精神的打擊。在8點(diǎn)協(xié)定和12點(diǎn)協(xié)定中做出的關(guān)于各方政治出路的保證，對(duì)我們不起作用了。這是我們堅(jiān)決反對(duì)的。

Q. And yet, after all the dispute, you are still in the talks. Sometimes your relationship with Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala looks cold and sometimes warm. You look extremely optimistic as soon as you step into Baluwatar. And a couple of weeks later you again look hopeless. What kind of spell has the PM cast over you? Or is it the other way round?

問(wèn)：然而，在所有爭(zhēng)論之后，你們?nèi)匀辉趯?duì)話，有時(shí)您與總理吉里佳·普拉薩德·柯伊拉臘的關(guān)系看上去冷淡，有時(shí)卻密切。您來(lái)到巴魯華特看上去非常樂(lè)觀，而幾個(gè)星期前您還看上去很失望的樣子。總理對(duì)您施加什么法術(shù)嗎？或者有什么其它原因？

Prachanda: This no spell. This time around too we have made it clear that we will neither head back to the jungle, nor will we leave the negotiating table. A power centre seems to be in a hurry to detach us from the dialogue process. But we are not willing to be detached. Issues like restructuring of the state, constituent assembly, democratic republic-- issues which were raised through the sacrifice of thousands of lives during the people’s war—have today become national slogans. Because, these issues have fallen within our rights, within our responsibilities.

普拉昌達(dá)：沒(méi)有法術(shù)。這回我們?cè)俅温暶魑覀兗炔粫?huì)回到叢林，也不會(huì)離開(kāi)談判桌。有某種勢(shì)力似乎迫切想讓我們離開(kāi)和談。但是我們不會(huì)離開(kāi)。諸如重建國(guó)家，制憲會(huì)議，民主共和國(guó)等問(wèn)題，最初是在人民戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)期間，通過(guò)數(shù)千烈士的犧牲提出的，而今天已經(jīng)變成了國(guó)家的口號(hào)。因?yàn)檫@些問(wèn)題關(guān)系到我們的權(quán)利和義務(wù)。

Q. What kind of environment marks the informal talks between you and the PM? It seems there is lot of love and affection between you two?

問(wèn)：您與總理進(jìn)行非正式會(huì)談時(shí)的氣氛是怎樣的呢？似乎你們兩位的交情很好？

Prachanda: Frankly, the two of us have always been at odds ever since our first meeting four and a half years ago. And yet, the country's overall situation compels such interactions between us.

普拉昌達(dá)：坦白地說(shuō)，自從4個(gè)半年前我們首次見(jiàn)面以來(lái)，我們一直在爭(zhēng)論。但是，國(guó)家的形勢(shì)迫使我們改善關(guān)系。

Q. Hasn’t the goodwill between two of you increased in these four years?

問(wèn)：這4年來(lái)你們的關(guān)系改善了嗎？

Prachanda: There have been occasions where this did happen. During the forging of the 12-point understanding, this goodwill had gone up tremendously. Similarly, the rigors that went into the formation of the eight-point understanding had shown the courage Girija Babu had displayed. Because our agreement on dissolving the parliament and forming a new (interim) government definitely enhanced our mutual respect for each other. But later, the manner in which the letter to the UN was written arose our suspicion. The kind of political stability that was needed in him was missing. After that, the way he spoke in public let down the masses. We were also disappointed by his comments. Despite all those agreements, he couldn't stand by his words.

普拉昌達(dá)：的確有這方面的事例。在簽定12點(diǎn)協(xié)定時(shí)這種友好關(guān)系得到很大發(fā)展。同樣，在簽定8點(diǎn)協(xié)定時(shí)，吉里佳也表現(xiàn)出勇氣。因?yàn)槲覀冴P(guān)于解散議會(huì)并成立新的臨時(shí)政府的協(xié)議確實(shí)加強(qiáng)了彼此之間的尊重。但之后，在他給聯(lián)合國(guó)的信的態(tài)度上引起了我們的懷疑。他政治態(tài)度的穩(wěn)定性正在消失。之后，他在公開(kāi)場(chǎng)合的言論就讓群眾失望了。我們也很失望。他拋開(kāi)所有這些協(xié)議而食言了。

Q. But there is still some hope, isn’t there?

問(wèn)：但還是有希望的，對(duì)嗎？

Prachanda: Let’s not say there is no hope. The talks are going on because there is still some hope left. But then, the kind of a sea of good feelings you are hinting at is not there. At some points, the situation demands it; at others, it is genuine goodwill.

普拉昌達(dá)：我們不會(huì)說(shuō)沒(méi)有希望。和談在進(jìn)行中，因此就存在希望。但是，您暗示的那種濃厚的情誼不在了。可以說(shuō)是形勢(shì)決定的；不過(guò)，那是真正的友好情誼。

Q. But there's no bitterness?

問(wèn)：您沒(méi)有痛苦嗎？

Prachanda: There isn’t. I think he (Koirala) has the role of a very important character. Despite the apparent barriers, he is very important for a political outlet in Nepal. And I believe that at this point, he stands at a crossroads—one that will determine whether he will be remembered as a great hero or a villain. The way I see it, at this point, he teeters on the brink. Looking at his recent activities and comments, the people are worried that he might be becoming a villain instead of a hero. He stands on the edge—he can slip and fall any time.

普拉昌達(dá)：沒(méi)有。我認(rèn)為他（柯伊拉臘）是一個(gè)能發(fā)揮作用的重要人物。盡管有很多明顯的障礙，他對(duì)于尼泊爾的政治前途還是非常重要的。我認(rèn)為在這一點(diǎn)上，他正處于十字路口，那將決定他會(huì)被后人看作是偉大的英雄還是個(gè)歷史罪人。我看到，在這一點(diǎn)上，他猶豫不決。從他最近的言論和表現(xiàn)來(lái)看，人民擔(dān)心他會(huì)成為歷史罪人而不是個(gè)英雄。他正處于這種懸崖邊緣，他隨時(shí)都會(huì)掉下去。

Q. Will you put forward this very thing during the October 8 talks?

問(wèn)：您會(huì)在10月8日的和談中提到這一關(guān)鍵問(wèn)題嗎？

Prachanda: Not only on October 8, let me frankly tell you that I am going to meet him (Koirala) in a very short while. I will tell him the same thing in this meeting also.

People may think that we (Prachanda and Koirala) have reached some secret agreements during our meetings. Last time also, I had flatly told him "Girijababu, our role has come to a very critical point. You are in such an important place. If you still side with the repressive elements of the royal army, it will be a really bad thing in history. If you move forward as directed by the 12-point and eight-point understandings, you will become the main character in history. I will also have a role, but that will be only a supporting role." I have clearly told him that he will become the main character. I have told him to stick to the role of that historic character. I meet him again and again to remind him of this. 

普拉昌達(dá)：不僅是在10月8日，我坦白地告訴你，過(guò)一會(huì)我就同他（柯伊拉臘）會(huì)面。我會(huì)把這件事告訴他。

人們也許會(huì)以為我們（普拉昌達(dá)和柯伊拉臘）在會(huì)談期間已經(jīng)達(dá)成了某種秘密協(xié)議。上次，我就坦白地告訴他，“吉里佳巴布，我們的作用已經(jīng)到一個(gè)關(guān)鍵時(shí)刻，你正處于一個(gè)重要的位置上。如果你繼續(xù)同那些王軍中的反動(dòng)分子合作，那將是不可饒恕的歷史罪行。如果你按照12點(diǎn)協(xié)定和8點(diǎn)協(xié)定的要求行事，你就會(huì)成為歷史上的杰出人物。我也能發(fā)揮作用，但那只是支持的作用。”我明確地告訴他他會(huì)成為杰出人物。我已經(jīng)告訴他應(yīng)該發(fā)揮歷史性作用，我一次次地提醒他這一點(diǎn)。

Q. These days the SPA leaders say that you (Maoists) are interested more in another mass movement than in the ongoing peace process. What do you say?

問(wèn)：這些天來(lái)七黨聯(lián)盟領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人說(shuō)你們（毛主義者）對(duì)發(fā)動(dòng)群眾運(yùn)動(dòng)更有興趣而不是和談。您怎么看？

Prachanda: We want a peaceful exit to the crisis. We have come up to here with the same intent. After forming the government, the seven parties are getting closer to the structures of the old regime. This makes us worry that a peaceful solution to the crisis may not be possible. Therefore we have said that the preparation for another popular movement should not be abandoned because the SPA government may eventually decide to take the side of the feudal elements.

普拉昌達(dá)：我們想和平解決危機(jī)。我們就是帶著這種愿望來(lái)到這的。政府成立以后，七黨就日益同舊政權(quán)接近。這使我們擔(dān)心和平解決危機(jī)會(huì)不可能。因此，我們說(shuō)如果七黨聯(lián)盟政府最終倒向封建勢(shì)力一邊，我們就不應(yīng)放棄準(zhǔn)備另一場(chǎng)人民運(yùn)動(dòng)。

Q. What is the possibility for such a movement?

問(wèn)：發(fā)生這樣的運(yùn)動(dòng)有多大可能？

Prachanda: It's quite possible. We haven't said that we will break the ceasefire and walk out of the talks. It's our assertion that if the SPA government goes against the spirit of the April movement that created a new history then the same people who took part in the April movement will stand up for the new uprising.

普拉昌達(dá)：非常可能。我們沒(méi)有說(shuō)過(guò)我們會(huì)破壞停火并退出和談。我們聲明如果七黨聯(lián)盟政府倒向反對(duì)創(chuàng)造了新歷史的4月人民運(yùn)動(dòng)的一邊，那么曾參加過(guò)4月人民運(yùn)動(dòng)的那些人會(huì)起來(lái)發(fā)動(dòng)一場(chǎng)新的起義。

Q. Now it seems both you and the SPA need each other. You need the SPA's support to balance the international situation. And they need your support and participation to keep the national politics in balance. But instead of consolidating your ties, both of you seem to be blaming each other?

問(wèn)：現(xiàn)在看起來(lái)，你們和七黨聯(lián)盟彼此是互相需要對(duì)方的。你們需要七黨聯(lián)盟的支持來(lái)平衡國(guó)際形勢(shì)。而他們需要你們的支持和參與來(lái)保持國(guó)內(nèi)政治的平衡。但是看起來(lái)你們不但不鞏固你們的關(guān)系，而是互相指責(zé)，為什么？

Prachanda: We had said in the very beginning that whoever will try to go against the earlier agreements between us (SPA, Maoists) will be betraying the Nepali people. We have told even Girijababu (PM Koirala) that the seven parties are now quarrelling over the same agreements. But they raise the issue of donations and all.

普拉昌達(dá)：我們從一開(kāi)始就說(shuō)過(guò)如果誰(shuí)試圖反對(duì)我們（七黨聯(lián)盟，毛主義者）之間簽定的協(xié)議，那就是背叛尼泊爾人民。我們甚至告訴過(guò)吉里佳巴布（總理柯伊拉臘）七黨現(xiàn)在正為我們的協(xié)議而爭(zhēng)吵。但他們卻提出捐款之類(lèi)的問(wèn)題來(lái)回避。

Q. What if the issue of monarchy is decided through a constituent assembly?

問(wèn)：通過(guò)制憲會(huì)議來(lái)解決君主制的問(wèn)題如何？

Prachanda: We don't have any objection to this idea if there is a consensus on other issues. Because the 12-point and eight-point understanding were reached to make the constituent assembly possible. But we are talking about holding a referendum (to decide the fate of monarchy) because we think this is more democratic. The elected representatives of the constituent assembly will draft the new constitution. And it will be more democratic if all the people are given a direct chance to decide the issue of monarchy.

普拉昌達(dá)：如果能在這類(lèi)問(wèn)題上達(dá)成共識(shí)，我們不反對(duì)這個(gè)主意。因?yàn)?2點(diǎn)協(xié)議和8點(diǎn)協(xié)議已使制憲會(huì)議成為可能。但是我們想通過(guò)一場(chǎng)全民公決來(lái)決定君主制的命運(yùn)，因?yàn)槲覀冋J(rèn)為這樣更民主。制憲會(huì)議選出的代表將起草一部新憲法。如果全體人民直接投票來(lái)解決君主制問(wèn)題，那會(huì)更民主。

Q. But it is the UML's proposal, isn't it?

問(wèn)：但這是尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨（聯(lián)合馬列）的建議，對(duì)嗎？

Prachanda: Certainly, this proposal was put forward by the UML. But during the course of discussion, we thought that it is more democratic and therefore we agreed on this proposal. But we haven't made the referendum issue a precondition.

But the prime minister is saying many elements will get a chance to become active in a referendum. This risk will be there in the constituent assembly elections as well. Both processes (constituent assembly and referendum) face this risk.

普拉昌達(dá)：是的，這個(gè)建議是尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨（聯(lián)合馬列）提出的。在討論期間，我們認(rèn)為這樣更民主，因此就同意了這個(gè)提議。但我們并沒(méi)有把全民公決作為一個(gè)前提條件。因?yàn)榭偫碚f(shuō)一些人會(huì)利用全民公決來(lái)活動(dòng)。這種危險(xiǎn)在制憲會(huì)議選舉時(shí)也會(huì)有。兩件事（制憲會(huì)議和全民公決）都面臨這種危險(xiǎn)。

Q. It seems both the SPA and the Maoist leaders have not been able to understand the people's desperation. Don't you feel you may de-link yourselves from the people's feeling?

問(wèn)：似乎七黨聯(lián)盟和毛主義領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人都沒(méi)有了解人民的渴望。您不覺(jué)得你們自己會(huì)脫離人民嗎？

Prachanda: Definitely. But the situation is not the same for the two sides. Because they (SPA leaders) are now in the government and have become MPs and ministers. But we have a compulsion of moving forward in a different way. During the Dashain holidays, I visited Sindhupalchowk, Tatopani, Naubise, Daman of Makwanpur and Pokhara. I also experienced the cable car journey and visited Mankamana as well this time. In my experience, the people are desperate and are agitated within.

普拉昌達(dá)：的確。但兩者的情況不同。七黨聯(lián)盟領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人現(xiàn)在是政府里的總理和部長(zhǎng)。而我們?cè)诹硪粭l路上繼續(xù)前進(jìn)。在德賽節(jié)期間，我訪問(wèn)了辛度帕爾喬克，馬克萬(wàn)普爾和博卡拉等地。我還參觀了電纜車(chē)并訪問(wèn)了曼克馬納。在這些活動(dòng)中，我看到了人民情緒激動(dòng)的熱情歡呼。

Q. Don't the obstacles seen in the peace-talks increase the people's desperation?

問(wèn)：難道和談中的障礙沒(méi)有增加人民的失望嗎？

Prachanda: Kishor ji, I don't think this (situation) will last long. We are also intensely preparing for the talks. In case the talks fail, we feel that we will have to take certain steps to address the people's desperation. You will know about these steps after a week. Let's keep it a secret for now!

普拉昌達(dá)：吉舍爾·吉，我認(rèn)為這種形勢(shì)不會(huì)持續(xù)很久的。我們一直在努力準(zhǔn)備和談。萬(wàn)一和談失敗，我們會(huì)采取斷然措施來(lái)滿足人民的愿望。一個(gè)星期后你就會(huì)看到這些措施。讓我們暫時(shí)保密吧！

Q. How optimistic are you about the October 8 Summit Talks?

問(wèn)：您對(duì)10月8日的高峰會(huì)談為何如此樂(lè)觀？

Prachanda: I am not very optimistic.

普拉昌達(dá)：我并不是非常樂(lè)觀。

Q. Is there any possibility that the talks will not go ahead?

問(wèn)：和談是否會(huì)出現(xiàn)僵局呢？

Prachanda: I do see that possibility. But the possibility that the talks will be held is also there. Shortly, I am going to put my things to Girijababu in black and white.

普拉昌達(dá)：我的確看到這種可能性。但是進(jìn)行和談的可能也是有的。很快，我們就會(huì)向吉里佳巴布攤牌。

Q. There is also this rumour that the talks will be deferred for a week?

問(wèn)：有傳言說(shuō)這次和談會(huì)再次推遲一星期？

Prachanda: That's not true. We want to hold the talks on October 8. But we don't want the gathering of the leaders on October 8 to look like a Gaijatra. The Nepali people desperately want a positive conclusion; they are hoping for the country to take a clear direction. If that is not fulfilled, there is no point in holding the talks. We don't think it's necessary to sit for talks just to conclude that no conclusion could be drawn.

普拉昌達(dá)：那不是真的。我們想在10月8日進(jìn)行和談。但是我們不想10月8日到場(chǎng)的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人都象吉里佳那樣。尼泊爾人民盼望著有個(gè)積極的結(jié)果；他們希望國(guó)家有個(gè)光明的前途。如果人民的愿望不能實(shí)現(xiàn)，那么就沒(méi)有和談的必要了。我們不認(rèn)為毫無(wú)結(jié)果的談判是必要的。

Q. It's not that the talks will have to continue if the October 8 talks do not take place, or is it?

問(wèn)：如果沒(méi)有10月8日和談，那么和談就沒(méi)有必要繼續(xù)了，對(duì)嗎？

Prachanda: It's not like that. We don't say to postpone the talks to leave the talks process or to break it. What we have said is let's take some more time to prepare for the talks if the homework done so far is not enough. Otherwise, the leaders gather and the gathering gets much publicity but nothing comes out at the end-- this will only send out a negative message. In reality, our emphasis is on reaching a consensus. If that does not happen, we will take a big decision for the people within a few days. The people are in a huge uncertainty for the past four months; we won't let this situation to continue. We are ready to make another sacrifice from our side for the sake of the country. We won't let a situation come where the Nepali people could blame us.

普拉昌達(dá)：不是的。我們沒(méi)說(shuō)過(guò)要推遲和談或中斷和談。我們是說(shuō)，如果和談準(zhǔn)備的不充分，那么我們就再花些時(shí)間準(zhǔn)備。否則，領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人們聚集到一起并被世人矚目，而和談?dòng)譄o(wú)果而終，那只會(huì)發(fā)出消極的信息。事實(shí)上，我們強(qiáng)調(diào)達(dá)成共識(shí)。如果不能實(shí)現(xiàn)，我們會(huì)在幾天內(nèi)為人民做出一個(gè)重大決定。人民在過(guò)去的4個(gè)月中一直生活在不穩(wěn)定之中，我們不能讓這種情況繼續(xù)下去。我們準(zhǔn)備為了國(guó)家的前途再次做出犧牲。我們不能讓尼泊爾人民指責(zé)我們的局面出現(xiàn)。

Q. Could that sacrifice be remaining silent on the issue of monarchy?

問(wèn)：這種犧牲會(huì)在君主制問(wèn)題上保持沉默嗎？

Prachanda: No, not that. We may walk out by handing over everything to the seven parties. Let us just go to the people. We can move ahead with this much right. Then the seven parties can do whatever they want; we may say that constituent assembly is enough for us.

普拉昌達(dá)：不會(huì)。我們會(huì)把些事交給七黨。而我們僅僅做群眾工作。這樣我們會(huì)前進(jìn)一大步。那時(shí)七黨可以做他們想做的；對(duì)于我們有制憲會(huì)議就足夠了。

Q. Mr Chairman, it seems you are very disappointed. These expressions of yours indicate that you feel weary and tired?

問(wèn)：主席先生，看起來(lái)您很失望。您這么說(shuō)讓人覺(jué)得您感到疲憊和厭倦？

Prachanda: The people are desperate for peace; I am concerned that if that desperation is not addressed in time, there will be another danger. What you see as disappointment in my expressions is definitely not disappointment. Yes, it may be the reflection of my concern. It could be a reflection of my agitated mind. The people should not be left un-addressed for a long time. Last year also, we had declared a three-month-long unilateral truce. Now, the seven parties are preoccupied with their own things even as the royalists are looking for a role again. The people feel suffocated. What we say is we should even be ready to make some sacrifices for a way-out. It's not disappointment.

普拉昌達(dá)：人民渴望和平；我關(guān)心是否這種渴望能盡早實(shí)現(xiàn)，因?yàn)檫€會(huì)有危險(xiǎn)。你看我象是失望的樣子，其實(shí)不是，那是我所關(guān)心的反映。那是我激動(dòng)心情的反映。人民的要求不能長(zhǎng)期拖延不解決。去年，我們也曾單方面宣布休戰(zhàn)3個(gè)月。現(xiàn)在，七黨在保皇派企圖卷土重來(lái)的時(shí)候卻只關(guān)心他們的既得利益。人民感到窒息。我們說(shuō)我們準(zhǔn)備做出些犧牲是為了有個(gè)了斷。那不是失望。

Q. That way-out could be reached on October 8 itself?

問(wèn)：10月8日的和談會(huì)是一個(gè)了斷嗎？

Prachanda: May be, may be not.

普拉昌達(dá)：也許是，也許不是。

Q. You mean the October 8 talks may not be held at all?

問(wèn)：您的意思是10月8日和談不能解決一切？

Prachanda: Yes, it may not be.

普拉昌達(dá)：是的，可能不會(huì)。

(Interview by Kishor Nepal)

（翻譯：紅石）

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