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尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)首席和談代表馬海拉( Mahara)接受采訪

紅石 · 2006-05-25 · 來源:本站原創(chuàng)
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尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)首席和談代表馬海拉( Mahara)接受采訪

Q: How long has it been since you were here last?
問:從你上次到這里(加德滿都)過了多久了?
Krishna Bahadur Mahara: It's been about two and a half years.
馬海拉:大約兩年半了。

Q: Didn't you come to the capital after the second round of talks?
問:第二次和談后你沒有來國首都嗎?
Mahara: We held talks in Hapure after the talks in Kathmandu. The talks ended immediately in Hapure. Since the Doramba incident, we have not appeared in public.
馬海拉:加德滿都和談之后,我們在Hapure繼續(xù)談判。談判很快在Hapure結(jié)束了。自從 Doramba 事件后,我們就沒有公開露面。

Q: The main reason why you are in the capital this time is to find a solution to the problems?
問:你這次來加德滿都的主要原因是為了解決當(dāng)前問題嗎?
Mahara: It's obvious. Not only this time but every time we have come for talks, it has been to give new directions to the people, to make a new Nepal and for bigger social transformation. We have this belief that the above objectives can be reached through talks. We have always believed that there can be peaceful solutions too. A lot has changed in the political scene this time. So, we are here because we seriously believe that we can go for the constituent assembly.
馬海拉:顯然是的。不僅這次,每次我們來和談都是因為發(fā)生了更大的社會變革而給人民以創(chuàng)建新尼泊爾的新指示。

Q: The newly formed government - and the reinstated House of Representatives (HoR) – has made some fresh announcements in favour of the people. Has that helped?
問:新組建的政府和被恢復(fù)的議會已經(jīng)公布了一些有利于人民的宣言。難道不是嗎?
Mahara: It has eased things. In contrast the present government is slightly different from earlier governments. Nevertheless the scenario cannot be considered to be fully acceptable as yet. There still remains a lot to be sorted out.
馬海拉:問題不那么簡單。相對來講,當(dāng)前政府是和早先的政府有點不同。然而形勢仍并不令人很滿意,還有許多遺留問題需要解決。

Q: Your party has critically welcomed the House Proclamation. It's said Maoists were consulted before making the announcement…
問:你們黨有條件地接受了議會決議。據(jù)說,在決議公布前,毛派參與了討論。
Mahara: Our formal reaction to the Proclamation has already been made public. We have welcomed religious secularism and the stripping of many of the king's powers. This is politically a very positive move. But the leaders of many political parties have said that it has made the house fully sovereign. But people are yet to be made sovereign. Therefore this Proclamation is incomplete. Comparatively, this has been a step forward. We, however, wait to see the practical implementation of the announcement. The verdict of the people's revolution is constituent assembly. The basis of the movement is the 12-point understanding between the parties and CPN (Maoist). Constituent assembly is the heart of the revolution. The ultimate aim of the revolution is republicanism.
馬海拉:我們對于決議的正式表態(tài)已經(jīng)公布。我們同意虔誠的世俗主義和剝奪王權(quán)。這在政治上是積極的一步。但是許多政黨的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人說他們已經(jīng)使議會享有充分權(quán)力。可人民還是無權(quán)。因此這個決議是不完整的。相對來講,它是前進了一步。然而我們想看到?jīng)Q議的實際執(zhí)行情況。人民革命的目標應(yīng)是制憲會議。運動的基礎(chǔ)是議會黨派與尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨(毛主義)簽定的12點協(xié)議。制憲會議是革命的核心。革命的最終目標是建立共和國。
We are not involved in the Proclamation. So we are apprehensive as to whether the parliamentary political parties will only work to improve and institutionalise the house and legitimise it rather than moving ahead in the direction of a constituent assembly. At least the government should have come to some agreement with our party prior to the Proclamation. It is either weakness or a conspiracy that the government failed to involve us.
我們并沒有參與決議討論。因此我們理解為什么議會政黨只是改善并使議會合法化而不是朝著制憲會議的方向前進。至少政府在公布決議之前應(yīng)和我黨達成一些共識。政府不與我們溝通是軟弱無能或陰謀的表現(xiàn)。

Q: The positive moves by the government have created a wave of support in favour of the government and the parties. You have been positive too. But don't you wonder why this is being done before the talks with the Maoists?
問:政府的積極表現(xiàn)已經(jīng)為政府和議會黨派贏得了廣泛支持,你們也是支持的。而你們不想知道為什么和談前會公布這項決議嗎?
Mahara: Yes in some regards we are thinking that. Parliamentary parties have been fighting in the streets for about one and a half years now. Although they were trying to make the movement effective they were not able to. Everybody has seen the face of the movement before and after the 12-point understanding. Since the 12-point understanding was central in taking the movement to the people, our role and participation has been clearly understood in the political circle. We and the people know this. We have had a major role in the movement and we share a major contribution. So if the leaders fail here the people will assess the parties' weakness. If they don’t consult with our party and think that they can do everything on their own, solutions will be difficult to find. It will push us deeper into the maze of problems. If that is the case, we will step forward and lead the people's will and verdict.
馬海拉:是的,我們正在考慮這些事。議會黨派已在街上斗爭了約一年半了。盡管他們一直努力想使運動產(chǎn)生效果,可他們做不到。所有人都看到了12點協(xié)議簽定后運動發(fā)生的變化。既然12點協(xié)議是人民運動的核心,那么我們在政治運動中的參與和起的作用就顯而易見了。我們黨和人民懂得這一點。我們黨在運動中發(fā)揮了主要作用,做出了主要貢獻。那么如果議會黨領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人不了解這一點,人民會認識到他們的弱點。如果他們不和我們商量而認為他們自己能處理一切,那么問題會很難解決。那會把我們推向問題的實質(zhì)。如果情況是那樣,我們將前進并領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人民運動。

Q: Does this mean returning to the armed insurgency?
問:那是否意味著恢復(fù)武裝起義?
馬海拉:要知道,我們在發(fā)動革命前是進行和平斗爭的。我們也參與過議會政治。我們的40點要求是通過和平方式提出的。
Mahara: What no one should be mistaken about is that we were taking a peaceful way before our revolution started. We practised parliamentary politics too. When we presented the 40-point demand, we took up peaceful means. We did not choose to start a war; we were compelled to. We came to talks twice and maintained sincerity there too.
我們當(dāng)初并沒有選擇戰(zhàn)爭,我們是被迫那樣做的。我們曾兩次真誠地與政府和談。
Our main agenda was always a constituent assembly. So it was not that we spoiled the talks and returned. Secondly, this time too we have come with sincerity and a sense of responsibility. Our peaceful aspirations have always been there in the past and present and they will be there in the future too. But if any force tries to conspire and work against the people's will, we might be compelled to take that way despite our unwillingness. We hope that will not happen.
我們主要目標仍是制憲會議。我們不是破壞了和談而又回來再談。這次我們?nèi)允且哉嬲\和負責(zé)的態(tài)度來談判的。我們對和平的渴望在過去、現(xiàn)在始終未變,將來也不會。但是如果有人試圖搞陰謀反對人民的意愿,那么我們將被迫做我們不愿做的事。我們不希望那樣。

Q: The present House, reinstated by the pressure of the movement, is a different House and has declared itself all-powerful and sovereign. When you raise unnecessary doubts it may fail to work as per the people's aspirations?
當(dāng)前的議會是由于人民的壓力而恢復(fù)的,與從前不同,它全部自己擁有全部政權(quán)。如果你們表示懷疑,那不是違背人民的意志嗎?
Mahara: No, it's not like that. Where is our place in the present House of Representatives? We are the political force who is not represented in the present House. Not only us, there are several other political forces who are outside the present House. There are only the representatives of the seven parties. And it's false that the mass movement was launched only by the seven parties. There are parliamentarians (in the present House) elected seven or eight years ago. People have advanced in this period. The House does not represent the people's mandate as expressed during the movement. The base of the House is the Constitution of 1990, which we say is a regressive constitution. We are against the 1990 Constitution. Talking truthfully, there are representatives (in the House) who were against the mass movement.
馬海拉:不,不應(yīng)這樣認識。我們在當(dāng)前議會中的代表在哪呢?我們是不代表議會的政治力量。不只是我們,還有其他一些政治力量沒有參加議會。議會中只有七黨聯(lián)盟的代表。以為群眾運動僅僅是由七黨聯(lián)盟發(fā)動的是不對的。在當(dāng)前的議會中有7、8年前選出的議員,而人民在這期間已經(jīng)前進了。議會不能滿足人民在運動中提出的要求。當(dāng)前議會的基礎(chǔ)仍是1990年憲法,因此我們稱之為回歸的議會。我們反對1990年憲法。坦白地說,議會中的代表是反對人民運動的。

Q: So which mechanism can be formed to include the Maoists?
那么應(yīng)建立一個什么樣的包括毛派的機構(gòu)呢?
Mahara: The central committee meeting of our party has put forth a 10-point roadmap. A broad political conference should be organized comprising all the political forces including the representation of all the levels of the seven parties, the Maoists and civil society. We have been stressing for a roundtable conference for the last few years. That conference will be more powerful than the present House and will work as an interim constitution. The all-powerful interim government formed afterwards will hold the constituent assembly elections.
馬海拉:我們黨中央委員會會議已經(jīng)提出了10點路線綱領(lǐng)。召開一個有七黨聯(lián)盟各級代表,毛派和公民社會所有政治力量參加的廣泛的政治會議。在過去的幾年中我們一直在強調(diào)召開圓桌會議。那樣根據(jù)一部臨時憲法召開的會議會比當(dāng)前的議會更有力量。隨后,由全權(quán)的臨時政府進行制憲會議選舉。

Q: Nepali people want peace and the present government has been somewhat successful in establishing it. What has hampered taking the talks process ahead?
問:尼泊爾人民想要和平而當(dāng)前政府在一定程度上成功地實現(xiàn)了和平。還有什么會妨礙和談進程呢?
Mahara: The government has taken a positive step towards creating an environment conducive for talks. But the government should not confine itself just to that. Doubts will be raised if it gets stuck just there.
馬海拉:政府為創(chuàng)造和談的有利環(huán)境采取了一個積極步驟。但這還不夠,問題就在這里。

Q: Perhaps, since the announcement has been made to go for constituent assembly elections, there should be no uncertainties?
問:或許,如果宣言是為了召開制憲會議,就不會有什么疑問了?
Mahara: Yes, theoretically an agreement has been reached. We shouldn’t forget the experience of the present House as it has approved various proposals of national interest. But such decisions are still pending so far. To be optimistic, the government itself has presented such proposals in the parliament and that all the oppositions have welcomed them. It's totally false that the proclamation has made the king powerless. The king is still in a position to hatch a conspiracy. There could still be interference by foreign powers. There are still some forces that do not want peace and stability in the country. There are such forces conspiring against us to stop us from the peace process. It can't be said that such forces, that committed incidents like Doramba, will not repeat their tactics against us. The whole peace process depends on how responsibly the seven-party government will come forward.  
馬海拉:是的,理論上我們已經(jīng)達成了一項協(xié)議。我們不該忘記當(dāng)前議會已經(jīng)同意了一些和國家利益有關(guān)的建議。但是這些決議至今仍未通過。值得高興的是,當(dāng)初是政府自己提出的這些建議而所有的反對派都同意了。如果認為決議已經(jīng)剝奪了王權(quán),那就全錯了。國王仍在搞陰謀。另外還有外國勢力的干涉。一些人仍然不想要國家和平和穩(wěn)定。一些人陰謀反對我們并阻止我們參與和平進程。這些人能制造出象Doramba那樣的事件,就會用同樣的手段反對我們。全部和平進程取決于七黨聯(lián)盟政府的負責(zé)任程度。

Q: Don't you believe that a conducive environment for the implementation of all the decisions exists since you have been collaborating with the seven parties for some time now?
自從你們和七個政黨合作以來,難道你不認為目前已經(jīng)具備一個決議履行的有利環(huán)境嗎?
Mahara: This government is different than any others in the past. We have called it the seven-party government and not one of the old regimes. Saying that the present government is formed by the pressure of the mass movement, we mean that we are a part of the movement. We have come to assist the government. We have come here to collaborate with it, not to struggle. We will encourage and assist the government to take a concrete step towards constituent assembly elections. So, the talks this time will be different compared to the past two ones.
馬海拉:這個政府與從前任何一個都不同。我們稱之為七黨政府而不是舊政權(quán)之一。由于當(dāng)前政府是在人民運動的壓力下組建的,而我們是運動的一部分。我們來幫助政府,我們來這里是與之合作的,而不是斗爭。我們將鼓勵和幫助朝著制憲會議選舉的方向邁出具體的步伐。因此這次和談與前兩次不同。

Q: When will the talks begin?
問:和談什么時候開始?
Mahara: We will start now. First the government should release all our political detainees. The government should not delay as it has expressed its commitment towards the 12-point understanding. The whereabouts of all our comrades who have disappeared at the hands of the past government should be made public. The government has responded responsibly on this issue. Talks should be held after completing all these tasks. We are for accomplishing the talks process as soon as possible. We have also stressed on quickly going for constituent assembly elections jointly.
馬海拉:我們可以馬上開始。首先,政府應(yīng)該釋放所有的政治犯。政府已經(jīng)根據(jù)12點協(xié)議做出了承諾,它不應(yīng)該再推遲。公開在舊政府手里失蹤的我們同志的情況和所在地點。政府應(yīng)該在這個問題上負起責(zé)任。和談會在這些事情解決后開始。我們將盡可能完成和談進程。我們還要盡快共同舉行制憲會議選舉。
eKantipur: So the whole process will move ahead after your participation in the government?
問:那么在你們加入政府后,整個進程會向前發(fā)展嗎?
Mahara: We will not participate in the present government but will join the interim government. Before that the old constitution should be annulled and the new interim constitution should be drafted. After the formation of the interim constitution, all the organs of the state will be at the interim stage and through that phase it will be easier to go for a constituent assembly.
馬海拉:我們不會加入當(dāng)前政府,而會參加臨時政府。舊憲法應(yīng)被廢除由新起草的臨時憲法代替。臨時憲法通過后,國家所有機構(gòu)都處于臨時階段,這更有利于召開制憲會議。

Q: When will your Chairman Prachanda come for the final negotiations?
問:你們的普拉昌達主席什么時候來進行最終談判?
Mahara: It depends on the climate of trust. All our senior comrades including the chairman will come for talks at the time of the final decision, when the process for the constituent assembly elections begins.
馬海拉:那取決于信任程度。當(dāng)制憲會議選舉的進程開始時,我們所有的高級領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人都將來做出最終決定。

Q: Will Prachanda come only for the final signature?
問:普拉昌達只是來最后簽字嗎?
Mahara: Yes, our chairman will lead from our side and Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala, as the head of the seven parties, will sit for negotiations. For that we need to accomplish all the procedures.
馬海拉:是,我黨主席會領(lǐng)導(dǎo)我們一方與柯依拉臘領(lǐng)導(dǎo)的七黨進行談判。那時會完成所有進程。

Q: You seem to be assisting the government but at the same time you have intensified extortions and abductions. How will it be supportive in creating an environment for talks?
問:你們表面上要幫助政府可同時又加緊勒索和拐騙。那怎么有助于創(chuàng)造和談環(huán)境呢?

Mahara: Hmm, I need to tell you a little bit about this. We recently studied the case of the industries shut in Bara and Parsa. We had begun asking donations with industrialists in the past. But this time the issue has been raised sharply. Arguments on the ordinary issues of donations, military (Maoists') demonstrations and abductions are rife. The elements that are against the talks, have attempted to break up the peace talks, by raising such issues. We have no option but to ask donations from the people for our army. We have directed all out cadres not to take money forcibly. Our friends have handed over the fake Maoists from Kathmandu as well. What has been said on abductions is false, who have not abducted anyone. Some people have come to us and asked us to call it abduction for security reasons. We have not demonstrated our arms in the city. We do not agree that the people are intimidated by the Maoists. A large section of the people are with us and that is why we have arrived at this position. The more the talks gain momentum the more such issues will decrease. There were several complications before reaching the 12-point understanding. The environment for collaboration was created after that. Politics will resolve every problem; there is no room to doubt us. 
馬海拉:關(guān)于這一點,我要向你講明。我們最近調(diào)查了Bara 和 Parsa.兩地企業(yè)關(guān)閉的情況。過去我們一直請求企業(yè)家捐款。而這次問題變的尖銳了。關(guān)于普通捐款問題,毛派軍事示威和誘拐的爭論開始普遍了。一些反對和談并試圖破壞和談的人提出了這些問題。我們沒有其他選擇只有請求人民為我們的軍隊捐款。我們指示干部不要強取。我們的朋友也指出在加德滿都有假毛派活動。關(guān)于誘拐是捏造的,我們沒有誘拐任何人。一些人找到我們,是出于安全原因請求我們保護。我們沒有在城市搞武裝示威。我們不同意人民被毛派脅迫的說法。正因為有廣大人民的支持,我們才發(fā)展到今天的程度。和談取得的成果越多,這類謠言就會越少。在12點協(xié)議達成前也存在一些復(fù)雜問題,但后來合作環(huán)境還是建立了。
應(yīng)該相信我們可以通過政治方式解決一切問題。

Q: Why do you ask for donations when the government has already said it is ready to allocate a budget for the Maoist army?
問:既然政府已經(jīng)答應(yīng)給毛派軍隊分配預(yù)算,你們?yōu)槭裁催€要求捐款呢?
Mahara: We will seriously present this issue during the talks. We will stop asking donations from the people if the government provides the budget to our army.
我們會在和談中認真地提出這一問題。如果政府為我們的軍隊提供預(yù)算,我們會停止募捐。

Q: How can the Maoist militia be managed before the constituent assembly elections?
在制憲會議選舉前毛派游擊隊應(yīng)怎樣管理呢?
馬海拉:我們不認為這是個大問題。如果政治協(xié)議達成,軍隊是容易管理的。問題不在我們軍隊一方而在尼泊爾王軍。在過去的238年中,為了維護君主制,王軍被用來鎮(zhèn)壓人民。如果相信尼泊爾王軍現(xiàn)在在議會的控制下,一切都相安無事了,那就犯了個嚴重錯誤。我們提議重建國家和軍隊。一個新型國家軍只能在我方軍隊和尼泊爾王軍合并后建立。
Mahara: We have not taken it as a big issue. An army can easily be managed if a political solution is reached. The problem doesn’t lie with our army; it’s with the Royal Nepalese Army. The army (King's) was mobilized against the people and has been in favour of the monarchy for the last 238 years. It will be a serious mistake to believe that everything is all right just by saying that the RNA is now under the control of the House. We have proposed for a restructuring of the state and army. A new National Army can be formed after merging our army and the RNA.

There are no obstacles from our side to go for free and fair elections. Both the armies (RNA and Maoist) can be neutralized. It has been mentioned on the 12-point understanding that the armies can be kept under UN or any credible organization's supervision.
我們這邊沒有舉行自由和公平選舉的障礙。雙方軍隊可以合并。軍隊可以在12點協(xié)議的基礎(chǔ)上由聯(lián)合國或其他可靠組織監(jiān)督下管理。
Q: Will it be problematic, as the RNA has already been converted to the Nepali Army?
關(guān)于尼泊爾王軍已經(jīng)變成了尼泊爾國家軍還有疑問嗎?
Mahara: The RNA has been converted into the Nepali Army only in words not in practice. There are still aristocrats, feudalistic thoughts and opinions existing within the RNA, which cannot be changed overnight by one decision.
馬海拉:尼泊爾王軍只是在文字上而不是在實際上變成了尼泊爾國家軍。尼泊爾王軍中仍存在貴族,封建思想觀念,這是不能通過決議在一夜間改變的。
Q: But, it has been mentioned that if the Nepal Army is weakened, problems might be created if the Maoists suddenly try to take control?
問:但是,要知道一旦尼泊爾國家軍被削弱,毛派可能會突然控制局勢。

Mahara: We have said (before and after reaching the 12-point understanding) that our army is everyone's army. We had even proposed the seven parties to induct their cadres in our army and take responsible positions. We are ready to make our army- the army of the seven parties. It will be a great delusion on their part if they trusted the king's army rather than that of the people's.
馬海拉:我們已經(jīng)在12點協(xié)議達成前后指出我們的軍隊是人民軍隊。我們甚至建議七黨指示他們在我們軍隊中的干部負起責(zé)任。我們準備使我們的軍隊變成七黨的軍隊。七黨相信王軍而不相信人民軍隊是不可思議的。
Q: When will the people get the chance to hear of peace?
人民什么時候可以迎來和平?
Mahara: We want to end this process as soon as possible. But it doesn’t depend only on our desire. We are hopeful that the people's dream will come true soon.
馬海拉:我們想盡可能結(jié)束這個過程。但那并不僅取決于我們的愿望。我們希望人民的夢想會盡早成為現(xiàn)實。
Q: Have you begun talks with the government?
你們已經(jīng)開始與政府和談了嗎?
Mahara: I have begun holding informal talks. We are pressuring the government to start the talks immediately. The government has still not been able to form a talks team. The government lacks seriousness. We, on the other hand, are already ready for talks.
馬海拉:我們已經(jīng)開始了非正式對話。我們迫使政府立即和談。政府方面還沒有組建和談小組。政府不夠重視,而我們已經(jīng)準備好和談。

(By Gunaraj Luitel and Ujir Magar)

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